Episode 49: Keeping UP with the Jones Act with Colin Grabow
Summary
At some point in a landlord's life, you WILL need to renovate (sorry for the bad news, but it's true). BUT, that cost to renovate can vary wildly, depending on where your rental is! Today's "Other" Salisbury topic features Jones Act Research Fellow and Expert Colin Grabow from Washington DC's CATO Institute. What is the Jones Act you wonder? Colin not only explains what the Jones Act is, he talks about how folks over the years have found the "loop holes", AND how Canada was the reason for the Jones Act in the first place! Join me and Colin in today's educational episode!
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Full Episode Transcription
Welcome to my life as a landlord where we untangle all things housing and educate the curious. If you're
looking for some entertainment with some honest, awkward conversations, you've come to the right
show. I'm your host, Dr. Jennifer Salisbury. This is my life as a landlord. Welcome to it.
Welcome to my life as a landlord, where we untangle all things housing and educate the curious. If you're
looking for some entertainment with some honest, awkward conversations, you've come to the right
show. I'm your host, doctor Jennifer Salisbury. This is my life as a landlord. Welcome to it. 1s Welcome
to my life as a landlord. This is Doctor Jen. Super happy to have you today. This is episode number 49
and I have got an amazing guest today. After all, my podcast aims to educate us and Canadian landlords
and tenants who seek calm success. Calm success. That's my buzzword. I appreciate that I provide a
predictable rotating three topics helping landlords, tenants and then other Salisbury adventures. What
today is today is another Solsbury adventure and whenever possible, I invite experts to join me. And
that's what's going on today. I've got amazing guest Colin Grabow. I'm so happy to have you, Colin,
thanks for joining us from the East coast of the US.
Well, gentlemen, thanks for having me on the podcast.
Yeah. So I, Colin and I met at a, uh, Hawaii grassroots institute, uh, meeting about the Jones Act. And
we're going to talk all about the Jones act today. And Colin is the guy to talk to, and I'm so excited about
that. Thank you again for joining us. So, Colin, just what is the Jones act?
The first thing's first, What is this thing we want to talk about? Uh, the Jones act is, uh, it's section 27 of
the Merchant Marine Act of 1920. And what it says is that if you want to move something, so you want
to transport goods by water within the United States, you have to use a vessel that meets four conditions.
The vessel has to be flagged and registered here in the United States, just like you register your car in a
state, you have to register your ship in the United States. Uh, it has to be built in the United States. It has
to be crewed by Americans and has to be at least 75% owned by Americans.
That seems like a really, really tall order to do.
Yeah, well, you know, a lot of people that hear that and they think, well, that sounds like a great law.
What's so bad about Americans? You know, American built ships crew by Americans, owned by
Americans transporting goods. And the problem is that these vessels are incredibly expensive, and they
drive up the cost of everything that they transport.
Oh my goodness. Well, because I'm sitting on Maui, we're going to talk all about Hawaii here shortly.
Uh, this is one of the reasons why I attended your lecture is because, you know, Mike and I bring in all
kinds of goods to Hawaii to support housing. And, uh, but I don't want to leave out Canada because I've
got quite a listenership for my Canadian landlords and tenants up there as well. How does the Jones Act
impact Canadians? Because it sounds like it's mostly us.
we wouldn't have the Jones Act without Canada. Canada figures pretty prominently here, actually. So,
um, you know, I mentioned the Jones Act was passed in 1920, but we've had laws very similar to the
Jones Act with similar requirements going back almost to the founding of the country. Um, and back at
that time, back in the late 1700s, the US, you know, being forced to use a US built or US cruise ship was
no big imposition because we had some of the best shipbuilders in the world, most efficient. And this is
back in the days of wooden ships and sails. Um, and so there was really no, you know, big premium to be
paid to use a US ship. And it wasn't that advantageous to use a foreign one. But as time went on, that
changed. And these protected US industries, uh, the shipbuilders and the shipping companies, they
started to become less and less competitive. And by about 1860, 1870, uh, US built ships were, you
know, they were not competitive with those built abroad. And people started looking for ways around the
Jones Act. How can you know where are some loopholes? And so it said, well, okay, I can't, I can't use a
foreign ship to go between US ports, but what if I go to a foreign port and then back to a US port? And
somebody tried that, transporting 250 kegs of nails, and the government said, yeah, no, that works. Uh,
the courts ruled rather. Yes, that's permissible. So Congress changed law and said, no, you can't do that.
So people still look for loopholes. And one loophole they found was transporting goods to and from
Alaska, between Alaska and the lower 48. And while you couldn't send a foreign ship from one U.S. port
to another, what you could do is transport goods over land to a foreign port, and then use a foreign ship
from that foreign port to an American port. So people would send goods to and from Alaska through
Vancouver. They would go over overland to Vancouver and then get loaded and go to and from Alaska.
Well, who hated that? Well. Shipping companies based in Seattle. They said this is unfair Canadian
competition. That should be our business. And these shipping companies were representing Congress by
Senator Wesley Jones of Washington state, who had a house in Seattle. And they they they testified in
Congress in 1920 and said, hey, we got this problem with unfair competition. We think you should
change the law. Here's some suggested tweaks. And if you look at the language of the Jones Act today, it
almost exactly mirrors what was, uh, what was proposed by the shipping companies in Washington state.
And that's how we got the Jones Act.
Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Um, Colin, you know that, um, I've got a rental business in Canada as
well. In fact, it's in British Columbia, north of Vancouver. And uh, we see the cruise ships go by often.
And yes, we know there are cruise ships that go out of Seattle and there's cruise ships that go out of
Vancouver, but they're subject to stuff with the Jones Act, too, right?
They're subject to a very similar law. Uh, you can call it. Maybe the Jones Act's twin brother or close
cousin called the Passenger Vessel Services Act. And the Passenger Bus Service Act is basically the
same as the Jones Act, except it applies to transportation of people instead of stuff. So ferries and cruise
ships, these are subject to the PDSA and the way these cruise ships operate, they go up to Alaska from
Seattle is to avoid violating the PDSA. They have to stop in a foreign port and make that voyage
international, not purely domestic. So they will go up and stop and, you know, Victoria or Vancouver for,
I think about four hours. Check that box. Go. We went to a foreign country. This is an international
voyage and it's all kosher. But, you know, there was an issue a couple of years ago during Covid or
Canada shut out its ports to to cruise ships. There were concerns that, you know, we don't. Last thing we
want is a cruise ship full of people with Covid showing up in our ports. Well, this put these these cruise
companies in a pickle because how are they going to be able to go back and forth if they can't make that
stop in Canada? So the Alaska delegation, uh, got a bill passed through Congress that gave an exemption
to the PDSA just for a few months for that cruise season, because something like 60% of all Alaska
tourist revenue is these cruise ships, and there's a cruise season, if they would have missed, it would have
been a real big deal. But that has lapsed. And now we're back to the days of stopping in Canada just to
check that box. Um, you know, it works out, I guess, for the Canadians, uh, they get, you know, extra
people stopping by, but, uh, not so great for Alaska.
Now, what about let's let's keep talking about cruise ships. Mike and I like to cruise, and, uh, and we
honeymooned around the state of Hawaii on a Norwegian cruise line ship called the Pride of America.
Now, that goes to the islands in Hawaii and doesn't make another stop somewhere else to make it
international. How did they get away with that?
Yeah. It is the only large cruise ship in the world that complies with the PDSA, but even then, there's a
big asterisk there because this this ship got a special exemption because it wasn't actually built in the
United States, or I should say, it wasn't fully built in the United States. The backstory to this is that there
was a company trying to build a couple of cruise ships back in, I think the late 90s or so, and the
company went bankrupt. So the shipyard building these ships had, uh, had the half built one ship, it had
the parts for another ship. They didn't know what to do with them. And so it sold them to a German
shipyard, which took the the ships and finish them. And then after they were built, um, there were no
ships operating in Hawaii. So there was a push by the Hawaii delegation to give a special exemption, uh,
to one ship, which is now the pride of America so it can operate in Hawaii. And this is a big advantage,
because if it didn't have that, all the other cruise ships that come to Hawaii, they come say from
California. Well, they just like those ships going up to Alaska. They need to stop in a foreign port. They'll
go back to the West Coast and they'll stop in Mexico and in Sonata Mexico, just south of San Diego.
Stop there for a few hours, check the box, and then and then go, uh, return to to California.
That's some that's amazing. It's absolutely amazing when you you just like you say, everybody's looking
for the loopholes. Um, but we talked a little bit about Hawaii, but I know there are other geographic areas
that are impacted by the Jones Act, especially after the Jones Act is, you know, 100 years old and
counting. Um, what other areas are impacted?
Yeah. So, I mean, the entire United States is impacted. Um, but, you know, here in the mainland, we
have ways around it. I can use a truck, I can use rail. We have alternatives to transporting goods. It still
hurts. It would be nice to have, uh, efficient shipping, but. But there are workarounds. Um, but it's much
more impactful, of course, for folks in the non-contiguous states and territories. Obviously. Hawaii,
obviously, Alaska already talked about that, but also Puerto Rico, uh, which is, you know, US territory
and also Guam. Um, Guam has a special status where they're nominally exempt from the US build
requirement of the Jones Act. So you can use a foreign built ship. You still need an American flag, but on
a de facto basis, anybody going to Guam is going to stop in Hawaii on the way. Um, makes no sense just
to go to Guam and pass by the much larger market. So a lot of the ships that go to Guam are Jones ships
that first go to Hawaii. So on a de facto basis, Guam is impacted just as much as the other, um, non-
contiguous states and territories.
Oh my goodness. Well, let's. I know you're doing incredible research there in Washington DC at the Cato
Institute on on the Jones Act and how it impacts. And, you know, your education is all about
international affairs and trading and things like that. And I, I'm wondering, what's your take on the Jones
Act impacting the housing crisis in North America? How do you see the Jones impact or Jones Act, uh,
affecting the housing crisis?
Yeah. So, um, obviously you're constructing a house. You need lots of different materials. Um, and in the
case, you know, say of Hawaii, well, you're going to feel particularly because all that stuff has to be
transported by ship. And, and, you know, I think we've really explored it. But, you know, these these
Jones ships are very expensive. Um, for two reasons. One is they're the cost of operating them is roughly
three times more than one's, um, from the international fleet. Uh, and then also, they have to be built in
the United States, and US built ships are 4 to 5 times more expensive than those built abroad. So, for
example, the latest Jones Act ship built the in fact, the only Jones ship built this year, uh, which is for the
Hawaii trade, uh, to be used by Hawaii. Uh, it costs over $225 million. Now, a similar sized ship was
ordered from a South Korean shipyard two years ago, I think, for, like, $41 million. Wow. So who's
paying that? Who's paying that difference? What's going on? People that have to use Jones shipping.
Exactly. You know, everyone. Everyone in Hawaii. Um. And obviously everyone, Alaska and
everywhere else. But with regard to the housing market specifically, um, say, for example, we have this
situation where lumber producers in the northwest of the United States have been complaining about the
Jones Act for years because they say, look what I want since, uh, my, my lumber to other parts of the
United States. Um, I have to use Jones shipping, you know, or I have to put on a railroad. I don't have
access to efficient shipping, but my competitors across the board in Canada, they can use international
ships, and that gives them a leg up. Um, you know, kind of tilts the playing field in their direction, puts a
thumb on the scale for them. So that's, you know, that's unfair. Um, but this, you know, this applies to all
kinds of building materials. Um, you know, I also think of another example, the Wall Street Journal a
few years ago had a story about the Jones Act, and I mentioned a guy that ran a lumber store, I think, in
Maine. He said, look, I got customers down in Puerto Rico, and, you know, if I want to get it to them,
well, eh, there are no Jones ships. It operates out of Boston or or even, you know, um, Kennebunkport,
you know, any, any Portland, Maine or one of these, uh, closed reports. I have to get everything to
Jacksonville, Florida first, because that's where 90% of the shipping going to Puerto Rico operates out of.
So first thing, I pay the cost to, you know, get it down there. And then from there, I gotta put on an
expensive Jones vessel. So, you know, we know that, you know, theoretically, without the Jones act, uh,
say people in the southeast United States could get cheaper access to lumber. Um, you know, talking
about this lumber thing. Jones. That creates some interesting bedfellows. Uh, because obviously, the US
shipping companies, they don't want the competition. They they they love the Jones act. But I remember
that, um, some decades ago when people in the northwest were trying to get something done on the Jones
Act. They also found opposition from lumber companies in the southeast United States because they
didn't want the competition either. They they thought, hey, this helps keep out, you know, uh,
competitors from other parts of the US. So, yeah, it has all kinds of, you know, dysfunctional strange
outcomes.
Oh my goodness. Well, it just shows you that you never know. If you drop a pebble in a pond, you never know
how those waves are going to impact. And, you know, the housing crisis is is global. And it's it just it's
amazing what impacts are different where I mean, the housing crisis in our location up in Powell River,
BC, we don't talk about the Jones Act, but we do talk about because it's two ferries to get up there and
everything has to be barged in, much like Maui. And but, you know, we're talking about from everything
from Long Beach or from Seattle to Maui for, you know, all that's got to go on a Jones act. Plus, you
know, there's a lot more logistical aspects from that. So it all it all impacts the bottom line. Which then,
okay, you know the cost of housing goes up, up, up. And you know which ties right into rebuilding
Lahaina. You know, the the fires that took out Lahaina and and 19 houses up country on August 8th of
2023. Now we've got this whole big rebuild push going on, um, which, you know, hasn't started yet, but
that's immediately what I thought is, how are we going to get all the materials here? 1s And not go broke
to rebuild Lahaina. I mean, what's your take on on the Jones Act rebuilding Lahaina? It's going to be
expensive.
So to your point, I mean, basically, you know, the Jones Act affects the cost of transportation and
transportation affects everything. I mean, you know, it touches almost all aspects of our economy. So
yeah, like, you know, um, the ripples are felt everywhere, but especially, uh, in, say, Maui, um, because
Maui is at arguably an added disadvantage in the sense that any goods coming from the mainland and of
course, the mainland is Hawaii's biggest trading partner. Uh, it's part of the same country. It's going to go
to Honolulu first on a ship, but then it has to get transferred to a barge to go, um, to Maui. Uh, so, you
know, has to use two drones and vessels, so, you know, double, double the fun. Uh, and, you know, I
mentioned the cost of ships, but even the barges are expensive. Um, I think the main barge being used to
transport goods to Maui is the. I help me with the pronunciation Haleakala.
I think that's right. It's young brothers. Yeah, yeah. Young brothers
Island. It's it's. Yeah, it's it's it's I think it's a massive barge and it cost $25 million to build. Well, to give
you some perspective and holds the cargo capacity is I think 640 to use a two is a 20 foot equivalent unit.
So a 20 foot container is one to you. You have a 40 foot container. That's two TEUs. Well, this thing is
640 TOS where you can buy an actual self-propelled oceangoing ship and not a barge, but a self-
propelled ship, uh, overseas for something like $23 million for a thousand TEUs with a bigger cargo
capacity. Um, so, again, this speaks to. And, of course, that's going to be a little bit more efficient, you
know, being self-propelled, um, uh, going through the ocean, uh, than relying on a barge. So, so, yeah, it
everything it's you can think of the Jones act as a tax. Basically. It's like a transportation tax. Uh, and then
that's going to be particularly felt. You know, it's felt in Oahu, but it's particularly felt in the neighboring
neighbor islands that also have to rely on that feeder service. Um, the barge is coming out of Honolulu.
So, um, yeah, everything all the all the rebuilding supplies that have to go there from the mainland are all
going to pay that Jones Act tax.
Yeah. Well, I'm just, uh. I know that's not the only thing that we pay for when we're bringing stuff in.
And we'll talk about protectionism and all that here in a second. But, um, if I remember from your
lecture, Jones act fleet is about 100 vessels. Is that right? Yeah. So so, um, if you look at, uh, just strictly
ships, you know, uh, ocean going, she wants, you know, a container ship, a tanker, things like that. Uh, as
of April, which is the most latest statistics the government provides, there were 93, uh, Jones Act ships.
So 90 there are, you know, many more say, you know, river barges and tugboats and things like that.
But when we talk actual ships, yes,
we're looking at less than 100 in the Jones Act fleet. That's that's incredible. I mean, I don't know how
what you know, the 93. Ships are split, you know, West coast, East coast, anything like that. But when
you're supplying materials, I mean, millions of people live in all these different places that rely on this.
That's not a lot like, well, you think about. Yeah. 1s Yeah. I think globally it depends how you, you
know, define what a ship is. But, you know, there's roughly something like 50,000 ships in the world and
there are 93 that comply with the Jones Act. So that means that for Americans, which, you know, we are
the world's largest economy, but also we're a geographically just very large country. Uh, this is a country
that stretches, you know, from Guam to Puerto Rico, from the Aleutian Islands to Maine. Um, you know,
transportation is a big deal, and we only have a fraction of 1% of the world ships to meet our economic
needs. Uh, that those 93 ships you mentioned, you don't know how they break down East Coast. West
coast? Well, 56 of those are tankers. So are you talking just in terms of, you know, cargo ships that, you
know, can, uh, handle dry goods? Um, you know, cargo ships, I think there's something like 23,
something like that. Uh, again, to meet the needs of the world's largest economy. And it's interesting that
these ships are restricted. All the container ships, 100% of them, operate to the non-contiguous states and
territories. You can't take a container ship, say, from Boston to Houston. There aren't any, uh, because
they're not competitive. Um, that option does not exist. We only use Jones ships where there's no other
choice. I think that's pretty instructive, because, you know, shipping is typically known, especially over
long distances, as being a very efficient, attractive means of transportation. And we've made it pretty
much, uh, a last resort.
Wow. And and expensive. I mean, we only built one Jones ship. Why? Why do we not build more ships
in the US? We're just we're busy building other, other stuff. Probably military ships.
Yeah, a couple, a couple reasons. Yeah. Um, so we don't build very many ships. So, you know, the idea
behind the Jones Act is, well, you require the ships we built here in the US. That means that people will
build lots of ships and keep our shipyards busy. But our shipyards are so uncompetitive in charge, such
high prices. There isn't much demand for what they make. Um, in fact, literally this week I saw an article,
um, from Lloyd's of London talking to the, uh, CEO of a major Jones Act tanker company. He said, yeah,
I'm not buying any new ships. I'm just going to take my older ones and put like, new engines in them and
try to upgrade them because, you know, us built container. Uh, sorry. Tanker is 200, over $200 million
overseas. It's $50 million. So people are very reluctant to buy new ships. Faced with those prices, there
isn't much demand. Um, and, you know, as far as why that is, I mean, there's a few reasons, uh, you kind
of hinted at one, which is, uh, what's really keeping shipbuilding going in this country. Our military
contracts almost, uh, as of, you know, 2019, something like 78, 79% of all ship, uh, shipbuilding revenue
in this country. Industry revenue was from US government contracts. It's not private sector.
yeah, you look at the big the big shipyards in this country, Newport News, uh, electric boat, uh, bath
ironworks, Hunton Ingalls. It's government contracts. A lot of these shipyards, they haven't built a
commercial ship in decades. And as far as why we're, you know, so bad at it. Well, a few reasons.
Number one, I think if you protect an industry from competition, they're going to be uncompetitive.
Almost by definition. You don't have to compete. You're not going to be competitive. Uh, you know,
number two, um, you know, your ship is a kind of jack of all trades, master of none. It's a small captive
market. So one year they built this kind of vessel, another they build another kind of vessel where
shipyards overseas will build large volumes of vessels, but in a pretty narrow category for the
international market. So they specialize. They get pretty good at a certain type of vessel that Americans
are disincentivize from specializing. So we don't become as competitive. We're kind of all over the place.
And what they do and the the prices they charge reflect that.
Well, let's talk more about prices. I know we had talked about the costs of shipping, and a Jones Act is,
you know, one thing, driving up the the costs. But that's not the only thing. Right? You had talked about
protectionism and recently wrote a blog about it. Tell us more about that.
Sure. So as I mentioned, this blog post, which I wrote after shortly after the the disaster that struck Maui
with the wildfires. Um, so obviously, as we've discussed at length, uh, anything coming in from the
mainland is going to pay that Jones Act tax. So then you may think, well, you know, the Jones Act does
not apply to international shipping. You can bring in, you know, imported goods from abroad and use
any ship you want. Uh, so that provides a refuge from the Jones Act. But even if you do that, you're still
going to get hit by another set of protectionist policies. Um, which are, you know, your run of the mill
tariffs, for example. Uh, we put tariffs on all kinds of building supplies like hardwood, hardwood, uh,
plywood and quartz counters. Um, you know, nails. Um, you know, we have and we talked about the
importance of wood, uh, as a, as an input, uh, as a material for building homes. Well, there's also steel
and aluminum. That's, that's, you know, a big material that's needed for construction. And we, uh, have
the Trump administration imposed a special tariffs on imported steel and aluminum, which the Biden
administration has kept in place. So all kinds of things, you know, wall tiles, ceramic roofing tiles, uh,
copper nails, you name it. There's probably some kind of tax that's being applied to that which which
drives up the cost in the case of Maui, of reconstruction, rebuilding.
Mike and I saw that we when we were doing our recent build, we on Maui, we had mainland stuff that
was coming in, you know, subject to the Jones Act. And then we had international stuff that we had built,
manufactured and then shipped in from Asia. Right. Some of it was China, but not all of it was China.
And there were tariffs and all kinds of things that were charged on top of that, going to Honolulu. And
then, of course, it has to be transferred to a Jones Act barge to get to Maui. I mean, it's it's all over the
place in Hawaii, uh, and beyond.
Let me interrupt you. Yeah, yeah. For your for your Canadian listeners, they may be screaming
at me right now because I left out softwood, uh, tariffs on softwood lumber exports from Canada. We,
we, we, you know, we hit the Canadians uh, with special tariffs. These aren't just run of the mill tariffs.
We we said, oh, this is unfair uh, competition from Canada. So we've tried to make there we've
artificially inflated the price of their lumber exports. So that's also playing a helping hand in the
reconstruction, no doubt.
And it's interesting because here on Maui, one of the main lumber suppliers here on Maui is bought by or
was bought, um, or the same ownership has a mill in Canada. So when all that went down, so then it was
tariff tariffs into the US and then Jones Act to get it to Maui. And so lumber prices, everybody wanted to
know why lumber prices spiked in during Covid and of course during our build it spiked. Well there was
no it was no question for Mike and I on why why that all happened. So absolutely anything else for the
Canadian listeners?
No, I won't tell. The Canadians may find this story kind of amusing. Um, last year there was a story that
came out about, you know, there's a special little known exemption to the Jones Act, which says that you
can use a foreign vessel if at some point during the voyage, during the cargo's journey, it goes over
Canadian Railway. Um, and there's an obscure backstory that I won't bore you with, but. So, um, you
know, here in the East Coast, we like to import a frozen fish from Alaska. And the way that typically
works is it gets loaded onto Jones ships from Dutch Harbor. They'll go to Seattle, offload, gets placed in
rail and goes to the East coast. Well, another company had an idea and they said, well, what if we can use
foreign ships in a Canadian railway? So what they did is they load the frozen fish on a foreign ship, went
down through the Panama Canal, up the west coast and went to New Brunswick, Canada. They offloaded
it and this company built a 200 foot long railway. They loaded the frozen fish on a railway, would go up
and down. They check that box and say, we want a Canadian railway. Uh, then they load them onto
trucks and send them across the border into the United States. Now, two years ago, Customs and Border
Protection busted this and said, no, no, no, that is not a Canadian railway. That does not count. They tried
finding these guys hundreds of millions of dollars and shut the whole operation down. But this speaks to
a larger point. These are the lengths that people will go to to get around the Jones Act. These this
company obviously did the math and thought it makes more sense for us to build a fake railway in New
Brunswick and do all this rigamarole than just use a Jones ship and go to Seattle and send it on a train.
And I think that's instructive.
Well, I think that's it's amazing capitalism, uh, trying to make a business case for all of that, uh, is super
interesting. Uh oh my goodness. Wow. We'll call in as, uh, as we close out today's podcast. The last thing
I always do for my guests is I give them a call to action. And so all you listeners out there, I'm going to
put the link to Colin's blog post about protectionism. Uh, on the website on my life is a landlord. Com so
your call to action today is go and read it. Go and read it. Learn more about what Colin's doing with the
Jones act. It does affect you as especially you landlords, whether you're on the US side or the Canadian
side. At some point in your landlord journey, you're going to have to do some kind of renovation or
upgrade, and very likely you're going to have an impact with materials and maybe resulting labor because
of some of this stuff. So thank you so much, uh, Colin, for joining us today. This has been great having
you appreciate it. I really appreciate the opportunity to come on here and talk to you and your listeners. And
yeah, I hope they read the blog post and get something out of today's conversation. 1s Um, I'm sure I've
certainly enjoyed it.
Excellent. I'm so happy. I hope you come out to Maui again soon. Are you coming out to Hawaii anytime
soon?
No, I have no plans. But Id love to. You know, the day I saw you in Maui. That's the only time I've been to
Maui. And I was only there for a few hours. I got got off the airplane, went and gave a little talk, met
you, got back on an airplane and flew back to the to the mainland. And that that was my whole Maui
experience. So yeah, I'd love to get back.
Well, there is more to see on Maui. Just so you're aware I've heard. Yeah. That's awesome. Oh, perfect.
Well, as as we close out, um, listeners, let me know your comments and questions. You can email me,
learn at my life as a landlord.com and of course your comments and questions. Create our next podcast
and give you more resources. Don't forget that we have free resources on our website. My life is a
landlord. Com including two free Blackout Bingo cards for newbie and pickle landlords. Uh, thanks
again to Colin. Join me again next week. All you listeners out there. It's a podcast topic for landlords,
episode number 50, and it's entitled the Art of Checking References. We'll see you there.
Thank you for joining us this week. To view the complete show notes
and all the links mentioned in today's episode, visit our website at www.mylifeasalandlord.com. If you're
looking for educational resources for getting into real estate investing, becoming a landlord, or even a
better tenant, then I have a page on my website to get you started looking for a solution to the pickle that
you're in. I have suggestions for that too. You can throw your situation on My Facebook Group My Life
as a Landlord and let our community help you with solutions. Also, before you go, make sure you
subscribe to the podcast so you can receive new episodes right when they're released. You can to
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Thank you again for joining me, Dr. Jennifer Salisbury in this episode of My Life as a Landlord. I'll see you next time.